Re: article "Several Church Leaders Give Views on Anderson"
I never can quite grasp whether people like the ones in this story don't see themselves as hypocrites, or if they know they are hypocrites and just don't care. They can't seem to decide whether to go ahead and admit that it is only about him being gay or if it's because they feel he's not stopping gun violence in his district. They make it pretty clear in the end that there is only one reason. Some even came over from other districts who have much worse gun violence in them yet surprisingly these folks have not initiated any recalls in their own crime-ridden districts. As much as I'd like, I'm not even going to delve into the repugnance of African Americans being bigoted towards people that are born gay, that would be a whole different letter unto itself. I just couldn't read this story without commenting, although it probably accomplishes nothing more than just getting it off my chest, as one person's opinion is not likely to change another's view on the subject any more than one of these people's opinion changes mine.
Why do so many not believe that a person is born with their innate sexual orientation? We don't "choose" it. Why do Christians find that so hard to understand? It happens in almost every species of animal in nature, so the folks who call it "unnatural" surely don't get it. If you truly believe that we are all God's creation, how can you argue with Him causing someone to be born gay? Maybe it's his way of population control, who knows? It's still a mystery, much like the mystery of being born left-handed or right-handed.
They always think it boils down to just the act of sex instead of sexual orientation. A gay man could have sex with many women, and even physically enjoy it because of how the human body works, but that would not change his innate sexual orientation.....it would just make him a gay man having sex with women. Likewise, and pardon the use of a tired cliche, say a heterosexual man serving a long-term prison sentence may end up having sex with a male cellmate, that doesn't change his innate sexual orientation, it just makes him a straight man having sex with a man. I think that is where so many Christians misunderstand, or for some reason want to believe that all humans are born with an innate heterosexual orientation and the so-called gays are really straight people choosing to be attracted to the same sex, and that the millions and millions of people who tell them different are lying to them.
They of course always say it boils down to the Bible and that God said it was wrong but sometimes you have to consider one gigantic fact....God did not write the Bible. It was written by man. We know that is true. That's a hard pill to swallow sometimes, because saying and comprehending that is too "borderline blasphemy" for some people. Some argue that God "spoke" to the writers and told them what to say. And these people have no trouble believing that's where every word of the Bible came from, yet at the same time only take two seconds to say Oral Roberts' claim of God talking to him and threatening to "take him home" if $8 million wasn't raised for the ministry was hogwash. But do you really think the men that wrote the books in the Bible had a full grasp of sexual orientation? Of course not....no more than they had of the female reproduction system. The Bible is very clear that the male seed is the only source of life and that a woman was nothing more than an "incubation" oven, it was even considered murder for a man to "spill his seed upon the ground" because that was "life" being spilled on the ground. Centuries later, however, we learned that women had ovaries and eggs and that contrary to what the Bible said, the male seed is not the sole source of life. Do Christians claim that biology books are lying about women's reproduction organs because it goes against what is taught in the Bible? Of course not.
The hypocrisy of "picking and choosing" what parts of the Bible to ignore and what parts to use to justify bigotry needs to stop. The people who claim they're only worried about the "sanctity" of marriage according to their Bible as being why they are against gay marriage. Really? That same Bible says that divorce and remarriage is adultery. Where is your petition to ban divorce and remarriage? Where is your petition to take away spousal rights of those remarried adulterers who are not married in God's eyes? I've been told that there can be no such thing as a "gay Christian" because he or she can't be forgiven yet continue to "live in the sin of homosexuality" so surely likewise those adulterers cannot be forgiven yet continue to "live in the sin of adultery" right? Do those pastors stand in a pulpit before a congregation full of people who have divorced and remarried and tell them that they are adulterers and that the Bible states there will be no adulterers in heaven so the only thing they can do is ask forgiveness and stop living in adultery? Hardly....in fact most actually perform the wedding ceremony of joining the divorcees in adultery right there in the church...not to mention there are pastors themselves who fall under the biblical definition of adulterer.
The Bible is also very clear on the subservient role of women, both in the church and in society. If the things about homosexuality are to be taken so literally and unchanging, then how exactly do you explain not believing the same for what it says about women?
The Bible also says to keep the Sabbath day holy. Do Christians follow that as strictly as they think everyone should follow what it says about homosexuality? On their Sabbath do they stay away from restaurants, movies, ballgames, races, television, work? Is patronizing establishments where people are working on the Sabbath keeping it holy? The Bible says no one should be working on the Sabbath, doesn't it? Or is that another "pick and choose" of what is or isn't to be taken literally?
Could go on and on but it's usually moot.....every time I've ever tried asking a Christian some of these things the subject always gets changed.....or they'll respond to one tiny word and not have answers for the rest.
I just couldn't help but see the irony of talking about "our children being shot in the backyards".....yet they seem to have no problem with gay children who kill themselves after constantly being told that the way they were born is an abomination.
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Mr. Rockford, since you have found ministers from the black community along with all Christians as hypocrites would you please enlighten us with your credentials? What is your spiritual beliefs, why do you believe them and what do you believe about the Bible? As I read your opinion piece I wonder if you would listen to a person explain his/her beliefs or do you just want an argument? On TV there are supposedly round table discussions and they are just a bunch of people not wanting to listen but to get their opinion in the forefront. When our children did this they were warned and the next time they got a paddling for those bad manners.
I truly believe if you made an appointment with any of those pastors and met with them, they would share with you their beliefs and why they believe that way. Meet with them with your list of questions and "listen" to their answers. You would not be there to argue with them but maybe to understand "their" beliefs. Like many Christians there are a lot of us that can explain our beliefs and why we believe the way we do. So I would suggest that you give it a try.
When I hear the term "born that way" I wonder if people look and think below the surface. There are many crimes committed and one could say, well I was born that way and expect people to accept that as a reason. There are couples that have been married many years and never cheated on their spouse but we have high profile people that have cheated over and over. I guess they could say I was born that way when the simple answer is they chose to cheat. It is how the individual chooses to see the action that helps determine what they believe.
Mr. Rockford, as a Christian should our paths ever cross I would be glad to share with you what I believe and why I believe it but I will not argue the point or expect you to believe as I do. One thing society has not done in many, many years is to sit down and talk to each other and most of all "listen" to what a person says with an open mind. Today if it happens we go into the discussions with a closed mind and have already decided they are wrong. Maybe someday.
N.D. Kennedy Sr.
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I would say that I applaud the thoughts of John Rockford but that wouldn't be right. It is a standing ovation.
To N.D. Kennedy, what "credentials" does Mr. Rockford need, in your opinion? And completely lacking, perhaps hypocritically of you are any of your own. Rockford accurately, succinctly and almost eloquently and I would say kindly offers many points demonstrating blatant hypocrisy of Christians and he never said all Christians as you twisted in your response. For every one of his excellent examples of inconsistency, there are many, many more.
Why would any of us need to make an appointment with any of the pastors? They have made their inconsistent message of hate and bigotry known proclaiming it loudly in the public square. By admission and inference you have as well, N.D. and your response was sadly lacking in substance. You talked about choice, choosing to be a cheat but didn't even address when you made the choice to be hetero. Assuming that to be the case, when did you choose your lifestyle? I certainly never made one.
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I applaud Mr. Rockford in his well thought out and composed letter as well as the response of Mr. Lawrence. I agree wholeheartedly with what Mr. Lawrence had to say on the subject. While reading the original article I also could not decide whether the issue was really gun violence or just bigotry.
It seems odd to me that many Christians would be so hateful towards homosexuality but not publicly condemn divorce. Many seem to pick and choose things from the Bible and use them to suit their own needs/fears/hatred. I may have not read the Bible from cover to cover but what time I spent in church as a child taught me that Jesus was loving and accepting of all he encountered.
I do not know Councilman Anderson's performance in office but if this recall effort has been brought about solely because of his sexual orientation then that is shameful. If a real discussion can be had about his performance in office without bringing up sexual orientation or some "agenda" to push these "beliefs" on others than I would rather read about that.
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Christians are not to impose their belief on another nor argue about what the bible says, but with love, patience, humility show and share the Word of God with them, and be a living example of what he or she attest to.
One of the things that Mr. Rockford stated was that “That same Bible says that divorce and remarriage is adultery. Where is your petition to ban divorce and remarriage? Where is your petition to take away spousal rights of those remarried adulterers who are not married in God's eyes? I've been told that there can be no such thing as a 'gay Christian' because he or she can't be forgiven yet continue to 'live in the sin of homosexuality' so surely likewise those adulterers cannot be forgiven yet continue to 'live in the sin of adultery' right? Do those pastors stand in a pulpit before a congregation full of people who have divorced and remarried and tell them that they are adulterers and that the Bible states there will be no adulterers in heaven so the only thing they can do is ask forgiveness and stop living in adultery?” When reading the bible, if it is not read in its full context then we allow ourselves to interpret it the way we understand it. God does not like divorce, He hates divorce (please take the time out to read and study these scriptures in its full context so that you would be enlighten on what the bible says about divorce and remarriage: Malachi 2:16; Matthew 19:6, 5:32, 19:9, 19:5; Deuteronomy 24:1-4; Genesis 2:24; Ephesians 5:31; and 1st Corinthians 7:15), and at Resurrected Baptist Church, Pastor Darryl Jacks, does preached the entire Word of God; not timid in some areas, and firm in others.
It is better to live for Christ while we still have breath, than to die and never know Him. Please also take the time out to read Philippians Chapter 2, and from this passage I would like to share verses 9-11.
Imitating Christ’s Humility
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
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Without fail, each time I read a commentary on the failure of "Christians" and especially the subject of same sex life style and marriage, even the best writers fall short of presenting their
argument completely. The reason? they fail to take into account two things-- first, if a person is to use the Bible as a reference for refuting any lifestyle, they must believe that it is the inspired
[breathed into] message from God to man. It is not a story of the perfection of man, but of his fall, and his backsliding, and failures. Peppered into the narrative are stories of individuals of great faith and fortitude.
Secondly, they always fall just short, just a breath away, from presenting all the biblical, historical, national, and human elements of the subject. They leave out critical information that they either do not know, or intentionally omit.
If you think about it, its really like our society today. Many individuals are a menace to society at large by acts of commission, or acts of omission (failing to do). The very general numbers in churches, corporations, your neighborhood, etc. come out to 20 percent do the work, including the work of faith,) and 80 percent are just hanging on. The 80 percent just show up. Inside the organization they are virtually useless except for the most menial of tasks.Outside the organization, you are led to believe that they hold the entire place together individually.
The Bible, (Jesus) refers to hypocrites and does not point to the John Q Christian of the day, but the money grubbing religious leaders. The only violence you find Jesus involved in is when he braided a whip, turned over the "banking" tables in the temple, and drove those men out. It was their hypocrisy (Greek word= actor) that ignited him to action.
I don't wish to argue with anyone about the Bible or sexual orientation. I'm so settled on the subjects I would be laughing and make the other person feel really uncomfortable by asking them what they don't know. Its not that simple for everyone becasue they have been brainwashed by politicians and the media and Hollywood and and the liberal social agenda. ACLU anyone?
Admittedly, I am brainwashed too. The process started when I was barely six-years-old (that's a bit late but it still worked.) How is my brainwashing different? I do believe the Bible but I also have some history, science, logic, and a bit of common sense in the mix also.
In case you wonder, I managed to put together nine years of formal education after high school. In fact, I was going to college while I was still a senior in high school. Not unusual you say? It was in 1975. At age 45 I had accumulated 45 years of worth of community, charity, and volunteer work. I worked in the hospital environment for close to 30 years. My point? I'm not a beginner here and I trust that Mr Rockford isn't either.
I'm not going to do a line by line refutation of Mr. Rockford's article or any of the responses to his article. It's a mute situation from the beginning if he does not hold the Bible as the "inspired" (breathed into) word (message) from God. I would have to begin by supporting the Bible based on things like historical and archeological records of reputable scholars, foreknowledge of scientific facts in the Bible before mankind discovered them, etc., etc.
The world is filled with hypocrites, yet we have faith in many of them, even after they have been revealed time and again (think politicians?, corporate heads?, bankers?.) What about me? I am definitely a hypocrite. Not a proud hypocrite, but definitely a hypocrite."Do as I say, not as I do"--AKA the leaven of the Pharisees. If you don't understand that reference, then you are not
in the game.